Regarding the discussion of DAO4 from Zhuangzi, ch. 6, Dan Robins wrote,
>What the passage from the Zhuangzi states is that a dao that you can pass on (but which can't be received) is before sky and ground. The problem is to understand what sort of thing both could be passed on and could be before sky and ground. I do not know how to give this a metaphysical reading.
That's easy! The metaphysical DAO4 can be "passed on" in the sense that one can come to understand it and act in accordance with it, but it is not something that can be "received" like a concrete object of a specific teaching.
Now, TIAN1 DI4 is a standard Classical Chinese expression for "the whole world." So to say that the DAO4 exists before and creates "Heaven and Earth" is to say that there is something distinct from the world as we ordinarily experience it that brings into existence that world.
>As for humans and their societies existing prior to dao, I'm not sure that works. You can't have dao without society, but can you have society without dao? If a dao is a way of doing things, then society and dao seem to come together.
Here's the problem: On Hansen's interpretation, dao's are a product of human invention. Hence, if Hansen's hypothesis were correct, what the Chinese texts SHOULD say, is that humans create dao's. Instead, what the texts DO say is that the DAO4 creates the whole world (which would include humans).
You seem to be suggesting that dao's and human society come into existence at the same time. But that is precisely what the texts DENY. DAO4 comes before the whole natural world (which would include humans) and, indeed, creates that world.
>You put "Taoists" in scare-quotes, but you depend on the existence of such a school for your argument, at least if you want the claim to work for Zhuangzi as well. As Paul Goldin reminded us, there is no evidence that such a school was recognised by pre-Qin thinkers. Though the term is useful to talk about Zhuangzi and Laozi together, there can be no presumption that what goes for Laozi also goes for Zhuangzi.
No, I do not need the assumption that there was a Taoist school. Hansen claims that DAO4 is NEVER used to refer to a metaphysical entity in pre-Qin thought. He (not I) NEEDS this extreme claim, because once we find one passage in which DAO4 is used in the metaphysical sense, there is no reason not to read other passages from the same period using the metaphysical interpretation. If DAO4 refers to a metaphysical entity in ANY one pre-Qin text, this opens up the possibility that it is being used that way in other texts.
Chris Fraser, describing what a metaphysical reading of the Zhuangzi would be like, wrote,
>Specially trained people (Jedi knights) can somehow tap into it or flow along with its current, and this enables them to perform feats of skill that are beyond the resources of ordinary humans.
And, indeed, this sounds EXACTLY like a description of Cook Ding in Zhuangzi ch. 3. He cuts up the ox with masterful ease, and when complimented on his "skill," responds, "What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill" (Watson, _Basic Writings_, p. 46). In other words, someone suggests that Cook Ding has perfected a "way of acting" (i.e., a "performance dao"), and Cook Ding specifically says that this description of his actions is inadequate: what he "cares about" is something beyond mere skill at performing a task. Nonetheless, what he "cares about" does enable him to have great "skill."
Chris Fraser also asked for "a clear explanation of just what the 'metaphysical' interpretation of DAO4 is." There are several clear, well-argued, published accounts of Zhuangzi that read him in this way. As a start, I would recommend,
P.J. Ivanhoe, "Skepticism, Skill and the Ineffable Tao," Journal of the American Academy of Religion, 61:4, pp. 639-54.
In addition, I strongly recommend Paul Kjellberg's unpublished doctoral thesis, "Zhuangzi and Skepticism," Philososphy, Stanford University, 1993 (available from University Microfilms International, Order No. 9403970). This work critically surveys a variety of different strategies for interpreting the Zhuangzi. Paul is currently revising it for publication, but it is worth having your library get a copy of the thesis now, if it does not already have one.
Best wishes,
Bryan William Van Norden
Date created: 10/28/96 Last modified: 10/28/96 Questions? Contact: Stephen C. Angle